Why would a man not want to date a trans woman?

Why would a man not want to date a trans woman? skyhigh.wee_-238x300I’m motivated to write this because of an exchange on Quora last week, which I think is worth developing. The original question, essentially, asked how a man could avoid ‘accidentally’ dating a trans woman, because he ‘didn’t want that sort of woman’. That is both shockingly transphobic and misogynistic and here’s why.

There is a legitimate reason why one might not wish to date any person: lack of attraction or interest. We all respond to our inbuilt attractions and we don’t generally want to pursue, romantically, people who fall outside those. This is maybe a form of objectification, but everyone does it. It’s hardwired into us.

But that was not the point of the question, which was how one could avoid dating a transwoman if one were attracted to her. That’s a whole other can of worms. It’s about a man who finds a particular person attractive and interesting enough to want to ask out on a date, but is afraid to do so in case she has — or used to have — non-standard genitalia.

That there is pure transphobia, open and shut. The questioner doesn’t even want to buy someone a drink on the very slim statistical possibility that that person might be trans.

This mindset believes that men have a right to expect sex as a return for buying dinner, effectively, and would consider the discovery of a hitherto concealed penis (past or present) to be a default of this ‘bargain’. But that reduces women to sex objects that can be bought with a couple of meals (or maybe a cinema ticket or two, depending on how cheap we are talking) so it is intrinsically misogynistic AS WELL as transphobic.

Then it gets worse; having paid a woman sufficient attention for her to consent to have sex with him, the man presumes a right to expect her genitalia to be of a certain order. This is what leads to the increasing numbers of purely cosmetic labial removal surgeries, amongst other absurdities, and, in some benighted cultures, far worse.

But like it or not, men do not have this right. Women are not measured by their genitalia. Furthermore, being nice to a woman does not imply a sexual bargain of any kind whatsoever. No amount of movies or dinners can guarantee access to her genitalia, whatever they look like. This is coercive, and reduces women to walking genitalia to be bought by men. It is an underlying cause of rape: men are conditioned to think that women, in whom they have invested time and money, who then refuse sex are welching on the deal. Once again, transphobic and misogynistic.

Furthermore, this mindset can be lethal to transwomen. I have just spent a week trying to support a friend who was agonising about whether she should tell a man who had been expressing serious hots for her, that she was trans. Of course I advised her to, but I hated myself for doing it, or rather having to. I had no choice because the transphobia inherent in the question can be deadly to transwomen.

My friend was under no moral or ethical obligation to tell the man details about her genitalia. But in order to prevent her getting into a situation in which she might get killed, I had to say that she should inform this man about something that he had no right to know, at least at this stage. Because of transphobia, her genitalia suddenly became the only thing that mattered.

So what if she’s gorgeous, smart, funny, talented, great company, affectionate, loyal and charming? Doesn’t conform to a rigid patriarchal expectation of women, so none of that matters and she had to cry herself to sleep over yet another guy who suddenly lost interest. Telling her that he’s a fool who doesn’t know what he lost out on seems small comfort.

The trouble is, in reducing this lovely woman to the contents of her pants, transphobia does the SAME THING to every other woman. They are also reduced to genitalia, and not just the genitalia they have now, the organs they were born with. Birth genitalia, in this world view, is all that counts. Therefore that’s all a woman is — genitals on legs. How staggeringly presumptuous and demeaning can it get?

Dangerous

If you don’t believe how dangerous the misogynistic, transphobic suggestion that men have a right to expect women’s genitalia to be a certain shape is, please Google ‘Jennifer Laude‘ or ‘Gwen Araujo’. Why would anyone suffer like that? Because of transphobia, that’s why.

These, and countless thousands of others like them,  were murdered by their lovers because of their patriarchally-conditioned expectations. And that is about as sick as it gets. Seduce a person, achieve your desired end and then kill her because her genitalia don’t look like what your buddies say they should.

Not only is all this transphobic and misogynistic, it is profoundly cowardly because it is all about one thing: fear of penises — and even in the past tense. Big tough manly men indeed, so afraid of a few ounces of human flesh that they will bludgeon a woman to death after having sex with her. It is utterly despicable.

Legitimate

So, the only legitimate reason for not dating any woman is that you’re not attracted to her. That’s fair enough. We all have triggers. We should try to be open and fair, and to look beneath the surface, but attraction is instinctive.

However, to be afraid of liking and falling in love with a woman, on the grounds that her genitalia might not live up to your expectations, is as deeply transphobic, misogynistic and cowardly as I can think of.

Updated 28/03/2017

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Copyright 2015 Rod Fleming’s World

12 thoughts on “Why would a man not want to date a trans woman?”

  1. The dating has different ways in which a lover can always express of what is in their heart. Through this, they can have ways to satisfy their emotions. For they just always communicate through phone calls, video calls and or by email. By this means, they cannot fully satisfy their feelings towards each other.

  2. Wow this is such a militant, biased and emotional article
    “I expect you to respect my views while I call yours ridiculous”

    Hey so I was wondering where the buck stops – try transableism (people believe they’re actually disabled and have to remove their limbs to avoid feeling like they’re in the wrong body, transracialism, transageism etc

    None of this is backed by medical research and that which has been done sees this as a mental disorder, this is all social justice warriors afraid of the fact of mortality, of limitation and ultimately of truth

    We don’t get to choose our race, culture, gender or disabilities. And if someone has disturbed thinking, I don’t want to date them

    And you can’t tell whether or not their thinking is disturbed necessarily by just looking – and if we’re talking about allowing someone to be intimate with me, I should be allowed to know as much as it takes for me to feel comfortable and pull out if I don’t – same as any real girl I would want to ask out. For no reason should she have to sleep with me because she doesn’t want to offend me and there should obviously be no double standard

    As much as you don’t have to accept my views, I don’t have to accept yours and you have no right or medical basis to tell me I’m the delusional one

    1. Well, to start with, transsexualism has indeed been identified and properly described by science. I suggest you read the work of Dr Ray Blanchard. There are two completely distinct conditions in which people born male either desire sex changes or to live as women. The first is true transsexualism or HomoSexual Transsexualism (HSTS). These individuals are attracted to men and are naturally very feminine. The second type are called Autogynephiles. These, which are prominent in the West but much less so elsewhere, are fetishistic crossdressing men.

      Janet Mock is transsexual and Bruce Jenner is autogynephile.

      I certainly would not blame anyone, male or female, for not wishing to date an autogynephile, since these are almost always very obviously men. However this article was really discussing transsexuals, who are women in every way but their birth sex and often highly attractive, as well as being very strongly attracted to men. The fact is that most transsexuals can easily attract men. The question therefore is, ‘if you would date her if you didn’t know she was transsexual, why would you not date her if you did?’ And the only answer to that is bigotry, which you appear close to displaying.

      Regarding gender, this is entirely a social construct, and is not innate in any way. There is no such thing as ‘brain sex’ so why should an individual not choose their gender? Surely they should just be what they feel comfortable being. Unfortunately, you fall into the trap of thinking that there is some genetic or physical connection between sex and gender: there isn’t.

      Just because they tell you something in church doesn’t make it true; rather the opposite, if anything.

  3. I think I have a right to know that who I was dating was always a woman. Why? Because I want biological children and morally, that transgender person is still physically the other sex. I would be hurt to learn after I pursued a woman, that I had engaged in sexual activities with a man! That I have been tricked…because that person is still a man, and no manner of surgeries, paperwork, or brain activity would change that. In that case, I would be the victim of deciet!

    1. The stupid in this response is almost funny. Gosh you think that your precious little ‘manhood’ has rights over women? Any women? It doesn’t. Actually nobody is under any moral obligation to tell you anything about their past, unless they are carrying an STD that might harm you and that’s only for sexual relations. Certainly no transwoman is under a moral obligation to tell you she has or had a dick, although I advise that they do, so that blinkered morons like you don’t beat them to death. While a few autogynephilic men do pursue relationships with men, almost all transsexuals who would date a man are Blanchard HSTS or true transsexuals. They are not, and never were, men, even though they were born male. Nobody is born a man, you mutt, we LEARN it. Just like women learn to be women. Sex is innate, gender is learned behaviour. That simple. So your precious whingeing about having ‘pursued a woman and whatever with a man’ is just transphobic horseshit. However the solution for you is simple: don’t date, have sex with or marry any woman, and that way the stupid you are carrying will be kept out of the gene pool. Do the right thing.

  4. Complete bullshit in this entire article. So you expect to respect your choices as a trans, but my choice as a straight male mean have transphobia. Get real. Sorry fun fact here no matter what you change on the outside you can never change the inside. Trans people will always have their birth gender written into their DNA. A trans woman will never be a real woman and a trans man will never be a real man. So how about you people stop trying to shame people into dating trans.

    1. Well, for the record I am not, nor have I ever been, trans in any way at all. So your little transphobic rant seems somewhat redundant. Oh but look, your stupid is showing. ‘Trans people will always have their birth gender written into their DNA’. Fuckwit, NOBODY has their gender written into their DNA. They have their SEX written into their chromosomes. Gender is a set of LEARNED BEHAVIOURS, and you don’t have to be born female to have learned to be a woman (feminine gender) or be male to have LEARNED to be a man. Furthermore, no true transsexual, who are the ones interested in men, I have ever met, significantly more than the ZERO that you have, has ever claimed to be a ‘real woman’. Not one. I know Bruce ‘Caitlyn’ Jenner does, but he’s not even a true transsexual, far less any kind of a woman.

      Frankly I would never ‘shame’ someone into dating anyone, and anyway, TS women do not need bigoted pricks like you in their lives. So off you go and suck your thumb, cause you’re way too fat to reach your cock — and I’m sure nobody else is servicing that for you, bud.

  5. As a person who desires 4-6 biological children, I think I have a right to turn down someone politely for not being able to give me children. I am petrified of having fertility issues anyway because of how horribly expensive it is to have babies with so many problems like what my friends have. To me, I would have a hard time continuing a relationship with a cisman if he had a vasectomy, actually, as sad as it is, I probably couldn’t continue. Especially if I was not made aware of the fact that he can never have children with me. As much as it would break my heart or make me feel bad, I know I want to try to have children naturally. And as some people have not yet had the surgery and may still have female genitalia, I would turn them down based of off a sexual preference that can’t be met at the time, but not simply because of who/what they are as a transgender. I understand both sides of the argument.

  6. since the brain of transgendered women are partly female in structure and partly male, and the chromosomes are male, I would like to know why transwomen want to be identified as “women”; why not be called “intersex”? comfortable with being called simply a “transwoman” or “intersex”? I understand the desire to be like everyone else, but there are many people who are different in a myriad of ways….why do you HAVE to be part of the binary?

    1. Firstly, this is a whopping misrepresentation: ‘the brain of transgendered women are partly female in structure and partly male’. NO. In fact only the brains of one group of transwomen differ from standard male brains. These individuals are known as ‘homosexual transsexuals’ or ‘Blanchard HSTS’. I just call them ‘transsexual’ because the homosexual adjunct is tautologous.

      There is another group, called ‘non-homosexual transsexuals’, ‘autogynephiles’ or (if they crossdress, they don’t all) transvestite autogynephiles. These are an apparent majority in the West. These have absolutely standard male brains. You will find the relevant studies, by Savic & Arver, Rametti et al, and Guillamon et al on my ‘Links’ page.

      While we can argue therefore that there is a case for some transwomen to be classified as having a form of brain intersex (see Guillamon 2016), this ONLY applies to those who are strictly androphilic, ie attracted only to men. These are the classic transsexuals or Blanchard HSTS. Unfortunately, autogynephilic transwomen (more properly ‘transvestite ayutogynephiles’) have repeatedly tried to twist the data to suggest that they have these brain anomalies too. THEY DO NOT. Bruce ‘Caitlyn’ Jenner’s brain is 100% male. I make this point fiurmly because the ‘we have female brains’ is a standard trope utilised by autogynephilic activists and there is not a word of truth in it. They don’t.

      Regarding your next point, interestingly, most transsexuals are happy to accept that they are male in origin and not ‘real women’. A few, who have been listening to too many USican gender-preachers, might disagree, but in my experience they are rare. The insistence on being a ‘real woman’ is a reasonably good indicator that the claimant is autogynephilic. These do try to claim the ‘intersex’ identity, but that is offensive both to transsexuals and more importantly to the many people who have congenital intersexual conditions. I personally think it would be far better if everyone agreed on ‘transwoman’ as you have spelled it, one word. But I am routinely attacked for this reasonable point of view.

      Re ‘the binary’, we all are a part of it because we evolved that way. The sexual binary is what allows us to reproduce and the only reason we are here is to do so. The basic sexual binary evolved into a set of social, sexual and person behaviours that we call ‘gender’ at least as early as the Middle Palaeolithic (See Kuhn and Stiner) and this division of social roles on the basis of sex is what has made humans so successful as a species. We cannot dispense with ‘the binary’ because it is innately a part of us.

      To understand modern Snowflake Culture, it is necessary to understand that the gender binary is not strictly men/women. As was identified by Prof Don Kulick, it is better described as ‘men/not-men’. In this model, ‘men’ are a strictly policed gender with specific roles they are expected to play socially, sexually and culturally. They are expected to be hunters and leaders, to be adventureres, to be sexually successful and even promiscuous, to be competitive, to be willing to fight in defence of personal ‘honour’ and that of the group, and to die, if necessary, protecting the group. These are all masculine males. The ‘not-men’ group is led by women but also contains the weaker and less masculine males (‘beta-males), the homosexuals and so on. This dichotomy is widely visible across the planet and there is plenty of literature on it.

      When we look at Snowflake Culture we see that it consists ONLY of ‘not-men’. It is led by dominant women, who are often lesbians. It contains all the other women but also gay males. The proponents of ‘non-binary’ culture like to suggest that this model means that the binary is redundant but in fact it is only ONE HALF of the binary. It just has cut out all the men.

      This model is not new; it has existed many times in the past and in each and every one, it has been destroyed when a masculine culture that has preserved its aggressive ‘men’ group has attacked it. We see this from the third millennium BCE in Mesopotamia, through ancient Greece, Crete, Cyprus, Europe, again and again. Each and every time, these cultures fell to aggressive, sociophagic patriarchal cultures.

      That is exactly what we are seeing in Europe today. A weakened culture that has had its men emasculated is being challenged by a virulent patriarchal one, in which the warlike tendencies of men are positively rewarded. That culture is called Islam. Sweden has already fallen and within the decade, other states will have too. Civil war in Europe is inevitable and insurrection is already widespread. However, as long as Europeans retain their emasculated culture they will not be able to fight back and the chances are high, now, that Western Europe at least will not survive.

      In short terms, we need the binary and by implication its patriarchy, in order to defend our culture from others that would destroy it. It’s simple human nature.

      1. But the extreme binary that exists in Islam is to the detriment of women. Women have almost no power at all and are at the mercy of their husbands. So where do we draw the line?

        1. In the first place, this article was written in 2015, before the current rash of absurd Snowflake ‘gender identities’ spewed across the internet. In those days there were transwomen, born male but appearing to be and living as women, and transmen, born female but appearing to be and living as men. These have nothing to do with the Snowflake ‘gender rainbow’, which is completely specious.

          In fact, transwomen, particularly those we call ‘HSTS’, transsexuals, or ‘homosexual transsexuals’ support the gender binary, because gender is rooted partly in physical sex but also largely in sex drive. So if you are a male with a woman’s sexual desire for men, ie homosexual, then, if you are good-looking enough, you might reasonably decide to appear to be a pretty girl in order to attract straight male partners. Blaire White was not around back then, but she’s a fair example. People like this are not challenging the sex or gender binary in any way at all — and are hated for it by radical feminists, who have the loony-tunes notion that the gender binary can be done away with.

          The above is also largely true of transmen — they are essentially lesbians on steroids who pursue straight women.

          The presence, notably in the West, of another group of transwomen, called ‘transvestite autogynephiles’ does confuse the issue somewhat. However, their impulse is also driven by male libido, but this time it is fixated on themselves, as women. These are essentially fetishistic crossdressers who have lost the plot; they are not transsexual at all. However, they too support the conventional gender binary — and are also hated for it by radfems.

          As regards Islam, yes, it is a horrible, misogynistic, transphobic, homophobic, slaving, paedophilic death cult that detests free thought and speech. Therefore it is the natural ally of today’s Snowflake ‘SJWs’, the modern equivalent of Hitler’s Brownshirts — and it is worth noting that Hitler was also much enamoured of the vile creed of Islam.

          Naturally, I would like to see Islam removed, not just from the West but from the planet or, failing that and very much as a second-best option, turned into a form that is compatible with civilised society, which Sunni Islam as presently constituted, never can be. As to ‘where do we draw the line’, I personally would say at zero tolerance of Islam. However, I did not mention Islam in the article either.

          Thanks anyway.

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